rhinto_small
THE SECOND EVOLUTION
BY DANNY VENDRAMINI

Q&A, FEEDBACK AND DISCUSSION

PAGE 3 (OF 4)




Professor Jaak Panksepp

Distinguished Research Professor Emeritus of Psychology and Adjunct Professor of Psychiatry, University of Massachusetts

NB. This letter was edited slightly to remove private information not relevant to the discussion.


Dear Danny,

I agree with your thesis that "Darwin might have missed something", but so would most people who have thought about such matters. After all he knew nothing about genes, etc. etc. etc. and concepts can only go so far, where facts will eventually have to guide ones thinking.

I agree the good and evil (i.e., positive and negative affect) have to be coded into the system by the genes, but I really see no evidence yet that this is mostly in the noncoding regions of DNA. I expect the most of it will eventually be found in coding regions already discovered for a variety of affectively positive and negative
neurochemsitries.   

I agree that affective experience is part of the inherited sets of tools for living that many animals have, and we already know very much about the underlying brain systems and also the neurochemistries, and none of it, in to my knowledge, yet requires us to look for the main solution in the noncoding DNA regions.

My challenge to you would be to ask what kind of scientific predictions you would make that could dramatically either support or disconfirm your theory. I am not aware of any realistic ones (i.e., ones that could be evaluated using present technologies) that you have yet generated.  Without that, your "insight" resembles more of the type of valuable thinking that is common in the humanities than in the sciences. . . but perhaps I am not thinking clearly at the moment,
while sitting and waiting for my wife at the University of Idaho libarary.  .. in a wonderful little town called Moscow.  Do let me know if you are ever in this little corner of the world, and it would be a delight to meet you in person.

Best wishes in your explorations, and I do look forward to future instalments of your thinking/work. 

Jaak


DV: Reply

Dear Jaak,
Hope you're enjoying your new life at Washington State. Thanks for the invitation. If I'm ever in those parts, I'd love nothing better than to chat with you.

Thanks for your thoughts on noncoding DNA and emotions. They're much
appreciated. May I suggest a few reasons while I can't see complex innate behaviours and emotions being encrypted in protein coding areas of DNA.

Firstly, genes code for proteins, from which cells and physical organs are
created - the body's 'hardware' if you like. Although innate behaviours and
emotions use this hardware, they are in fact more akin to 'software,' being
essentially mediums of ephemeral information. Can emotions be coded from
proteins or is the molecular chemistry more specialised than that?

Secondly, protein coding genes rely on mutations which are known to be
random. While it's easy to see how random mutations can fuel incremental,
gradualistic physical evolution, lots of innate behaviours and instincts
reflect the organism's current environment, (for instance, what a particular
predator or food source looks like) things that are external to the genome
and to which the mutational process is blind. For example, can a random
mutation encode in turkeys the precise shape and flight characteristics of
its principal predator, the hawk, so that newly hatched turkey chicks will
run for cover when they see a hawk flying overhead (Tinbergen, 1948) but
will not do so when they see a pigeon or other nonpredatory bird. It seems
more plausible that some evolutionary adjunct emerged that allowed the
organism's current environment to instruct the genome with adaptive
information?

Third, so far, no protein coding sequence has yet been discovered that
corresponds to a complex innate behaviour, whereas Hammock and Young (2002) announced they discovered a 400 nucleotide sequence of noncoding DNA that precisely corresponded to monogamy in prairie voles. Is this genetic
evidence of a teem? Possibly.

Finally, you asked, what does teem theory predict and explain? On my web
site, at http://www.thesecondevolution.com/implications.html I've just listed about 20 currently unexplained biological phenomena  that teem theory appears to explain and predict. Included is the Cambrian explosion, the ubiquitous presence of emotions in multicellular animals, the function of ncDNA and why it is conserved in a wide range of metazoan genomes from mice to humans, inconsistencies in the fossil record that have baffled palaeontologists for over a century, speciation, blindsight, synaesethesia, etc.

I guess though that where we differ most is that I don't subscribe to the
Skinnerian idea that the brain is the sole creator of emotions. I argue that
when a CNS receives sensory stimuli from sensory organs, it produces
'patterned neuronal activity' which the CNS of even the simplest organism
can interpret as distinctive emotions. The teemosis process simply allows
some of these emotions to be archived in DNA and accessed by descendents. In
this way, each species builds up its own unique library of emotions which in
turn, precipitate specific behaviours.

All the best.
Danny




Fran Bonier
University of Washington
Dr. Vendramini,

First - I'm not a Dr. yet, still at least a year away from it. I'm a PhD candidate at the University of Washington.

Second - your theory is certainly radical. I would like to see an explanation of the molecular model of translation of emotions into mutations, and an explanation of the subsequent spread of those identical mutations to all of the germ cells (difficult given that human females have all of their ova at the time of their birth). And then an explanation of how the mutations code for an emotion. Without these basics, there isn't any way that one can assess the potential validity of your theory. I study corticosterone, and do not know of any actions that it has that actually alter DNA. It impacts expression of genes, but not their sequences.

Third - you describe natural selection as the one and only mode of evolution, negelcting drift and sexual selection (among others). So your evolutionary force is not really the "second" one. And I do not agree that macroevolution requires a different evolutionary force from microevolution, and feel there is sufficient evidence to show that most macroevolutionary change has occurred gradually, as any evolutionary change does.

Good luck with your work. Hope my feedback is useful.

Best,

Fran Bonier


DV: Reply

Dear Fran,

Thanks for your prompt and interesting response. The points you make are certainly thought provoking.

I appreciate you want specific details and proofs supporting “the molecular model of translation of emotions into mutations, and an explanation of the subsequent spread of those identical mutations to all of the germ cells.” While papers 1-5 certainly provide many details, along with copious references, (including references supporting the prediction of inheritable stress induced mutations of noncoding DNA,) I’m the first to admit these papers don’t provide the kind of detailed molecular and genetic evidence you (and other life scientists) would rightly expect.

This of course doesn’t mean the theory is flawed. It simply reflects the fact that theory precedes observation, often by many years. For example, although Darwin and Wallace first put forward their theories of natural selection in 1859, it wasn’t until the 1950s that the molecular mechanisms of natural selection, (ie, point mutations, DNA, RNA, proteins, polypeptides, genes, etc.) were fully understood and accepted. Similarly, although Gregor Mendel published his theory of inheritance in 1865, it took another fifty years to identify and articulate the molecular-genetic mechanisms of inheritance.

While teem theory appears to explain a raft of diverse biological phenomena, from instincts and emotions to the Cambrian explosion and the capricious permutations of the fossil record, verification, (or rejection) of the theory will only come gradually, from experimenters, clinicians and hands on researchers such as yourself.

This won’t be an easy task. Because the teemosis evolutionary system mediates a complex biological interaction between the environment and the genome, it is inordinately complex, and will be difficult to extrapolate from the parallel Mendelian inheritance system. Because of this, in my book, ‘The Second Evolution’ I predict that it will take geneticists and molecular biologists at least ten years to unravel the myriad genetic infrastructure of teemosis and understand all its genetic elements. I also think it will take at least two decades to fully decipher the emotional language contained in noncoding nucleotides of DNA.

So while I appreciate you would like to see concrete proofs provided for all the elements of teem theory (just as I would), I’m afraid these may take some time. In the meantime, teem theory provides a guide - a map that experimenters, clinicians and researchers can use to help verify, amend or refute the theory.

Your second point – that genetic drift and sexual selection are evolutionary processes – so teemosis can’t be a ‘second’ evolutionary process, also makes a good point and requires a response.

While some text books argue that drift and sexual selection are evolutionary processes, I take a different view, based on the fact that the real evolutionary engine of natural selection is the mutational process. I suggest that because genetic drift and sexual selection both rely on random mutations of protein-coding genes to effect inheritable modifications of physical traits, they are both examples of natural selection. All they really do is determine which trait gets selected. The actual ‘evolution’ is achieved by the mutational process.

So while natural selection, sexual selection and genetic drift all rely on the same evolutionary process (random mutations of protein-coding genes), teemosis uses non-random mutations of non-protein-coding nucleotides to achieve a different (non-physical) kind of evolution.

This is not just semantics. Teemosis is unique as an evolutionary process in as much as it doesn’t moderate the evolution of physical traits as all the natural selection processes do. It only moderates the inheritance of emotional traits.

Finally, you write, “I do not agree that macroevolution requires a different evolutionary force from microevolution, and feel there is sufficient evidence to show that most macroevolutionary change has occurred gradually..”

Despite being a widely held opinion, especially among older biologists, I suggest this idea is not actually supported by current scientific data. In fact, the hard evidence of the fossil record clearly demonstrates that for the first 3.2 billion years of life on earth, NS didn’t produce anything even remotely resembling biological complexity or diversity (macroevolution,) a scenario that is completely at odds with Darwin’s gradualistic, incremental model of evolution.

Macroevolution only became a feature of evolution about 543 million years ago, and dates precisely to the emergence of the teemosis evolutionary process.

Thanks again for your very interesting and valuable feedback.

Kind regards

Danny  Vendramini





Jeff Garcia

Good site. [Fran] Bonier says there’s evidence that macroevolutionary change occurs gradually, a fairly presumptuous statement even for a student. Like most biofolk, she assumes macroevolution isthe result of selection because that’s the only kind of evolution her text books talk about, As someone whos burnt the midnight oil trying to crunch the kind of numbers of random mutations you need  to produce anything vaguely complex, the idea that there’s some nonrandom machinery producing complexity makes a whole lot of sense. What we need is a mathematically realistic explanation for macroevolution   something that doesn’t rely on the mega odds lottery of random genes. If this theory of yours can do that and it looks like maybe it can that’s a fairly important step.

Jeff Garcia





Werner Meyer

I have read the papers that touch on my own field of genetics and find the material very interesting. Though I cannot remark on aspects that are outside my area of competence, your case for a second genetic code in eukaryotic DNA is strongly argued and entirely plausible. A very convincing hypothesis indeed. It has given me much to think of. 

cordially,
Werner Meyer




Robin Allott
Thank you for your email. I will look at your site. The idea seems
interesting.
Robin Allott




Steve Rosenberg (1)

Danny,

My compliments on your web site and well presented ideas. A number of questions spring to mind but I'll start with just one. Your theory seems to support the chief premise of evolutionary psychology, ie. that human nature evolved during the Pleistocene epoch preponderantly to help hunter-gatherer ancestors solve adaptive problems related to hominization. But if my reading of your material is correct, you claim the cognitive and psychological faculties that evolved to provide domain-specific adaptations are emotions rather than specialized computational brain circuits as proposed by Tooby, Cosmides and others. Can you clarify this?
best wishes,

Steve


 DV: Reply (1)

























Dear Steve,
Thanks for your interesting question which gets to the core of what 'human nature' really is. If human nature was exclusively a function of brain-based (cortical) modules, you would expect it to reflect the precision and exactitude of cognitive thought - ie. rational, precise, cogent. It doesn't. Human nature appears to be made up of nebulous ephemeral elements - desires, urges, preferences, fears, inclinations, needs, etc. which ultimately are all emotions. This fits with the teem theory prediction that human nature is
not a collection of inherited thoughts, logic sequences or deductions. It is a collection of inherited feelings.

This model explains why human nature can provide humans with a universal preference for ‘park-like surroundings’ but it can't precisely name what trees or shrubs make up that preference. This is because emotions can’t proscribe specific concrete information. A human nature teem can provide men with an innate preference for women 'shorter than myself' (because ‘relative height’ can be encoded emotionally) but it can’t provide an innate preference for a specific height. It can’t encode a preference for a female 5’ 7” tall for instance. The corollary of all this is that all the disparate elements that make up human nature are comprised of emotions. If information can’t be encoded into emotion, it can’t form part of human nature. There appears to be no exceptions to this rule.

Regards
Danny

   

Steve Rosenberg (2)



DV: Reply (2)

Interesting. What's your take on the criticism that evolutionary psychology is guilty of anthropocentrism because it focuses on humans at the expense of lower species? 


I think that's a valid criticism. Early Christian philosophers hubristically redefined our own motley collection of  instincts and innate behaviours as 'human nature' to elevate them above the other animals and support the notion that only 'only humans have souls.' Teem theory shows that 'human nature' is simply a species-specific library of teems, something we share with every other teemic species. 'Human nature', and 'gorilla nature', and even 'worm nature' are all equally valid as they were all acquired by the same evolutionary process - teemosis.


 



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